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April 27, 2005
Christian Extremism Rears Its Ugly Head
Jesus was radical.
He was a radical thinker, a peace-maker and a man of the people. He hung out with whores and lepers because his philosophy was to love and care for the forgotten, for the poor and for those at the fringes of society. He loved everyone regardless of their station in life, practiced a deep sense of humility and tolerance and preached that we were all, as was he, children of God. Radical thoughts for those times and for now.
But especially now. That is because after Muslim extremists from other countries attacked America on 9/11, America responded, in part, with extremists of it own: Christian Extremists. And Christian Extremists want America to be a completely Christian nation, run only by Christians, and teaching the lessons of Christ, whether you like that or not. And they're working very hard to make this a reality.
There are, of course, many hundreds of millions of peaceful non-extreme Christians around the world who practice kindness, tolerance of other religions and thoughtful community work. Some work behind the scenes and others are more vocal. The National Council of Churches, for example, vocally opposed the organizers and the purpose of Justice Sunday last week in Kentucky. And that took guts.
Unfortunately, it is the Christian Extremists who are grabbing most of the headlines and setting most of the agendas. Which is bad. And the media is complicit in this. Which is worse. Individuals like Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, and Bill Frist -- in their roles as public figures and leaders with way too much airtime-- consistently pervert the teachings of Christ while continuing to call themselves good Christians. Somehow, qualities like lying, ignorance, rage, arrogance, sidestepping the issues and aggressive grabs for personal power seem to be the hallmarks of today's Extreme Christians, replacing Christ's own examples of love, tolerance and acceptance. Worse yet, the plague of this kind of thinking is trickling down from today's Extremist Christian leaders to those in their flocks as well.
Take this gem of a note I got from an angry reader who read my last essay on Senator Bill Frist. When, during our correspondence, she discovered that I was Jewish, she sent this to me:
"that explains it. why didn't you say you where jewish in the letter you wrote. apparently you are studying the wrong religion. my GOD is the only GOD whether you believe it or not. it would help you to study the King James version of the true Bible and maybe you would find the truth."
Let's set aside, for the moment, that this sentiment is responsible for more wars being fought than any other throughout history. Put it aside for a second and observe how a brainwashed Christian Extremist likes to proclaim her monopoly on God. This is the "only my God is acceptable" tactic which is similar, but not identical, to the "you're going to hell if you don't believe in my God" approach. When this next happens to you, smile politely and REALIZE THAT NOTHING YOU CAN SAY OR DO WILL EVER CHANGE THIS PERSON. This is a lost soul, already brainwashed by other extremists into believing that unless you believe EXACTLY as they believe, that you will be labeled as wrong. Take pity. But...if you'd like to have some fun and, perhaps, try to make a difference, ask your assailant, "Exactly which portion of the Bible directly quotes Christ as saying that he was the only acceptable God and that those who thought differently than him would go to hell?" You'll get excuses but not an answer...because Christ never preached exclusivity, arrogance or Hell as retribution for not agreeing with everything he said and did.
Here's another classic from a more articulate reader:
"I enjoyed reading about your fairy tail land where Democrats vigorously support President Bush and demonstrate Christian behavior. Why is it that people like you want to define what a Christian is and tell us not to practice free speech. It would be refreshing if you would first define yourself honestly."
This is another common tactic Christian Extremists use which I like to call the "I'll avoid commenting on ANY of the salient points you've just discussed and instead attack you personally" approach. Conservative talk-show host Sean Hannity loves this approach; he's an expert at it. And it's a very popular tactic because it avoids having to deal with any of those sticky things called "facts". And, really, what person wants to admit they might have their facts wrong when he can have a big ego, act defensively and get really angry in order to make his point...all qualities that Christ himself embodied, right? The best way to deal with people who attack you in this fashion is simple: ASK QUESTIONS. When you put your attacker into the position of having to answer direct questions, you force them to be accountable for their answers. The only problem: you need to do your homework. And homework, dear students, is mandatory if you have any desire to speak truth to power or truth to the brainwashed.
We continue on to my next bumbling example:
"The Democrats ARE obstructing the President's judicial nominations!
They haven't confirmed nearly any Appeals Courts nominees!
The Senate's role is to advise & consent, NOT OBSTRUCT!
All nominees deserve an up or down vote in the Senate if they make it out of committee!
The filibuster has NEVER BEEN USED in this fashion in 200 years!
HOW DARE YOU HEATHEN DEMOCRAT INVOKE JESUS' NAME!!!
How would Jesus respond to Democrats today.
Would Jesus approve of abortion? NO!!!!!
Would Jesus approve of obstruction? NO!!!!!
Would Jesus approve of adultery? NO!!!!
Would Jesus approve of all the lies the Dimocrats tell? NO!!!!
Would Jesus approve of sex before marriage? NO!!!!
Would Jesus be a Democrat or a Republican? NO!!!!!"
This is a good Extremist Christian response because it combines a personal attack along with the 'ole "I'm going to confuse you with tons of extra punctuation so that you'll forget to fact check any of my sputum" approach. Only, I always fact check. And this woman's email contained an incredible array factual errors. For example, her assertion that Democrats haven't "confirmed nearly any" judicial appointees. Actually, the Democrats have already confirmed 204 out of 214 of Bush's appointees. Or that the filibuster "HAS NEVER BEEN USED in this fashion" in our history. When, very clearly, it has. But the biggest factual error of all was calling me a "heathen democrat". Because, as the primary definition of heathen is "an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible" and as I am a practicing Jew, it might logically follow that this Extreme Christian woman is drinking too much water from the pool. And Jesus wouldn't have drunk water from the pool; he would have walked across it.
But let us move to my most precious example:
"Don't send me another one of your emails. I strongly support the Republicans in this situation. I voted for Bush and I would over andover a million times and will vote again Republican in 2006 and 2008 so get hug another tree and drink some more Kool Aid and thank God there is a Republican in the WhiteHouse and the control everything because it is people like you that President Bush one reelection. We don't people like you running this country."
This one truly captures the "I'ma fuck you up by throwing everything at you I can possibly think of" tactic (see also the "Potpourri"). But you gotta give the guy credit: his last sentence is a huge comedic masterpiece, he manages to include exceptionally poor grammar and misspellings, and he worked in two ancient references to hippie culture. Speaking of which, I have a newsflash for Christian Extremists: Jesus had long hair, was counter-culture, wore sandals, hung out with lepers and whores and loved to preach peace. That kinda makes Jesus a HUGE hippie.
But today's final quote - the proverbial icing on the Extreme Christian cake -- comes from none other than Pat Robertson of the uber-Christian 700 Club. Pat appeared recently on "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" and was asked about the filibustering that Senate Democrats might use to defeat some of Bush's judicial nominees. His response was that Federal Judges were more of a threat to America than Al Queda:
"Over 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of the consensus that's held our country together is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings."
Then, when Stephanopoulos asked if Robertson's claims that these same renegade judges were "the most serious threat America has faced in nearly 400 years of history, more serious than al Queda, more serious than Nazi Germany and Japan, more serious than the Civil War...", Robertson -- feeling the love of Christ within -- replied:
"George, I really believe that. I think they are destroying the fabric that holds our nation together. There is an assault on marriage. There's an assault on human sexuality, as Judge Scalia said, they've taken sides in the culture war and on top of that if we have a democracy, the democratic processes should be that we can elect representatives who will share our point of view and vote those things into law."
So congratulations to Pat Robertson: he is Message to America's "Extreme Christian of The Moment" for preaching love, tolerance, peace and understanding exactly the way Christ would have done himself.
And congratulations too to George Stephanopoulous who was a compliant enough puppet to have the gumption to give airtime to Robertson in the first place.
Wake up America.
He was a radical thinker, a peace-maker and a man of the people. He hung out with whores and lepers because his philosophy was to love and care for the forgotten, for the poor and for those at the fringes of society. He loved everyone regardless of their station in life, practiced a deep sense of humility and tolerance and preached that we were all, as was he, children of God. Radical thoughts for those times and for now.
But especially now. That is because after Muslim extremists from other countries attacked America on 9/11, America responded, in part, with extremists of it own: Christian Extremists. And Christian Extremists want America to be a completely Christian nation, run only by Christians, and teaching the lessons of Christ, whether you like that or not. And they're working very hard to make this a reality.
There are, of course, many hundreds of millions of peaceful non-extreme Christians around the world who practice kindness, tolerance of other religions and thoughtful community work. Some work behind the scenes and others are more vocal. The National Council of Churches, for example, vocally opposed the organizers and the purpose of Justice Sunday last week in Kentucky. And that took guts.
Unfortunately, it is the Christian Extremists who are grabbing most of the headlines and setting most of the agendas. Which is bad. And the media is complicit in this. Which is worse. Individuals like Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, and Bill Frist -- in their roles as public figures and leaders with way too much airtime-- consistently pervert the teachings of Christ while continuing to call themselves good Christians. Somehow, qualities like lying, ignorance, rage, arrogance, sidestepping the issues and aggressive grabs for personal power seem to be the hallmarks of today's Extreme Christians, replacing Christ's own examples of love, tolerance and acceptance. Worse yet, the plague of this kind of thinking is trickling down from today's Extremist Christian leaders to those in their flocks as well.
Take this gem of a note I got from an angry reader who read my last essay on Senator Bill Frist. When, during our correspondence, she discovered that I was Jewish, she sent this to me:
"that explains it. why didn't you say you where jewish in the letter you wrote. apparently you are studying the wrong religion. my GOD is the only GOD whether you believe it or not. it would help you to study the King James version of the true Bible and maybe you would find the truth."
Let's set aside, for the moment, that this sentiment is responsible for more wars being fought than any other throughout history. Put it aside for a second and observe how a brainwashed Christian Extremist likes to proclaim her monopoly on God. This is the "only my God is acceptable" tactic which is similar, but not identical, to the "you're going to hell if you don't believe in my God" approach. When this next happens to you, smile politely and REALIZE THAT NOTHING YOU CAN SAY OR DO WILL EVER CHANGE THIS PERSON. This is a lost soul, already brainwashed by other extremists into believing that unless you believe EXACTLY as they believe, that you will be labeled as wrong. Take pity. But...if you'd like to have some fun and, perhaps, try to make a difference, ask your assailant, "Exactly which portion of the Bible directly quotes Christ as saying that he was the only acceptable God and that those who thought differently than him would go to hell?" You'll get excuses but not an answer...because Christ never preached exclusivity, arrogance or Hell as retribution for not agreeing with everything he said and did.
Here's another classic from a more articulate reader:
"I enjoyed reading about your fairy tail land where Democrats vigorously support President Bush and demonstrate Christian behavior. Why is it that people like you want to define what a Christian is and tell us not to practice free speech. It would be refreshing if you would first define yourself honestly."
This is another common tactic Christian Extremists use which I like to call the "I'll avoid commenting on ANY of the salient points you've just discussed and instead attack you personally" approach. Conservative talk-show host Sean Hannity loves this approach; he's an expert at it. And it's a very popular tactic because it avoids having to deal with any of those sticky things called "facts". And, really, what person wants to admit they might have their facts wrong when he can have a big ego, act defensively and get really angry in order to make his point...all qualities that Christ himself embodied, right? The best way to deal with people who attack you in this fashion is simple: ASK QUESTIONS. When you put your attacker into the position of having to answer direct questions, you force them to be accountable for their answers. The only problem: you need to do your homework. And homework, dear students, is mandatory if you have any desire to speak truth to power or truth to the brainwashed.
We continue on to my next bumbling example:
"The Democrats ARE obstructing the President's judicial nominations!
They haven't confirmed nearly any Appeals Courts nominees!
The Senate's role is to advise & consent, NOT OBSTRUCT!
All nominees deserve an up or down vote in the Senate if they make it out of committee!
The filibuster has NEVER BEEN USED in this fashion in 200 years!
HOW DARE YOU HEATHEN DEMOCRAT INVOKE JESUS' NAME!!!
How would Jesus respond to Democrats today.
Would Jesus approve of abortion? NO!!!!!
Would Jesus approve of obstruction? NO!!!!!
Would Jesus approve of adultery? NO!!!!
Would Jesus approve of all the lies the Dimocrats tell? NO!!!!
Would Jesus approve of sex before marriage? NO!!!!
Would Jesus be a Democrat or a Republican? NO!!!!!"
This is a good Extremist Christian response because it combines a personal attack along with the 'ole "I'm going to confuse you with tons of extra punctuation so that you'll forget to fact check any of my sputum" approach. Only, I always fact check. And this woman's email contained an incredible array factual errors. For example, her assertion that Democrats haven't "confirmed nearly any" judicial appointees. Actually, the Democrats have already confirmed 204 out of 214 of Bush's appointees. Or that the filibuster "HAS NEVER BEEN USED in this fashion" in our history. When, very clearly, it has. But the biggest factual error of all was calling me a "heathen democrat". Because, as the primary definition of heathen is "an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible" and as I am a practicing Jew, it might logically follow that this Extreme Christian woman is drinking too much water from the pool. And Jesus wouldn't have drunk water from the pool; he would have walked across it.
But let us move to my most precious example:
"Don't send me another one of your emails. I strongly support the Republicans in this situation. I voted for Bush and I would over andover a million times and will vote again Republican in 2006 and 2008 so get hug another tree and drink some more Kool Aid and thank God there is a Republican in the WhiteHouse and the control everything because it is people like you that President Bush one reelection. We don't people like you running this country."
This one truly captures the "I'ma fuck you up by throwing everything at you I can possibly think of" tactic (see also the "Potpourri"). But you gotta give the guy credit: his last sentence is a huge comedic masterpiece, he manages to include exceptionally poor grammar and misspellings, and he worked in two ancient references to hippie culture. Speaking of which, I have a newsflash for Christian Extremists: Jesus had long hair, was counter-culture, wore sandals, hung out with lepers and whores and loved to preach peace. That kinda makes Jesus a HUGE hippie.
But today's final quote - the proverbial icing on the Extreme Christian cake -- comes from none other than Pat Robertson of the uber-Christian 700 Club. Pat appeared recently on "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" and was asked about the filibustering that Senate Democrats might use to defeat some of Bush's judicial nominees. His response was that Federal Judges were more of a threat to America than Al Queda:
"Over 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of the consensus that's held our country together is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings."
Then, when Stephanopoulos asked if Robertson's claims that these same renegade judges were "the most serious threat America has faced in nearly 400 years of history, more serious than al Queda, more serious than Nazi Germany and Japan, more serious than the Civil War...", Robertson -- feeling the love of Christ within -- replied:
"George, I really believe that. I think they are destroying the fabric that holds our nation together. There is an assault on marriage. There's an assault on human sexuality, as Judge Scalia said, they've taken sides in the culture war and on top of that if we have a democracy, the democratic processes should be that we can elect representatives who will share our point of view and vote those things into law."
So congratulations to Pat Robertson: he is Message to America's "Extreme Christian of The Moment" for preaching love, tolerance, peace and understanding exactly the way Christ would have done himself.
And congratulations too to George Stephanopoulous who was a compliant enough puppet to have the gumption to give airtime to Robertson in the first place.
Wake up America.
Comments:
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I enjoyed your article and agreed with a lot the theories. The only point I want to correct is your statement; “Christ never preached exclusivity.” I am not a Christian, but I recall a verse from my youth, not sure chapter and number but should be easy to find, where Jesus states something like “I am the way the truth and the light and no one comes to the father but by me.” Other than that, I agree with your central point. There are brands of Christianity, found in some denominations more than others (Sean Hanianity), that are cultural Christians. They use a distorted message of the original text belaying the true message and intent of the New Testament by molding it with their political agenda. Religion is still the “opiate of the masses.” Christianity needs to have its own internal struggle for the truth but until then, we must continue to question the logic of the Christian Right and hold them accountable where their logic exposes their lies.
Cooperator,
We live in a majority rule, First Past the Post, winner take all system. Until we change our method of elections, a third party stands no chance in an FPTP system because they will never receive enough votes to gain an adequate proportionality of representation. I would love to develop some form of a PR (proportional representation) system in this country so that coalitions must be formed to form a majority government. In such a system, however modified, more views are represented and therefore, we a able to form a much more pluralistic government.
Thanks,
Dave
Cooperator,
We live in a majority rule, First Past the Post, winner take all system. Until we change our method of elections, a third party stands no chance in an FPTP system because they will never receive enough votes to gain an adequate proportionality of representation. I would love to develop some form of a PR (proportional representation) system in this country so that coalitions must be formed to form a majority government. In such a system, however modified, more views are represented and therefore, we a able to form a much more pluralistic government.
Thanks,
Dave
# posted by 
: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:24:00 PM
: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:24:00 PM
you guys all make excellent points, especially for the need for proportional representation and the way that Democrats and Republicans attack each other. I agree. At this point, the democratic party does not have what I'd call a clear agenda.
i proposed my own agenda in an earlier post (http://messagetoamerica.blogspot.com/2005/02/top-ten-list-for-howard-dean-democrats.html) but many folks thought i was awfully close to the green party's platform. if that's true, so be it.
as for my being partisan, i'll both agree and disagree. in truth, it's a lot easier to hate the demagogues and nutjobs of the Republican party. But the Democrats are lackluster, lack vision, lack unity and lack balls. i don't think i'm truly partisan: i just think the most egregious problems of today are being rammed at us by the Right, not the left.
keep educated, everyone.
your humble editor,
david koff
i proposed my own agenda in an earlier post (http://messagetoamerica.blogspot.com/2005/02/top-ten-list-for-howard-dean-democrats.html) but many folks thought i was awfully close to the green party's platform. if that's true, so be it.
as for my being partisan, i'll both agree and disagree. in truth, it's a lot easier to hate the demagogues and nutjobs of the Republican party. But the Democrats are lackluster, lack vision, lack unity and lack balls. i don't think i'm truly partisan: i just think the most egregious problems of today are being rammed at us by the Right, not the left.
keep educated, everyone.
your humble editor,
david koff
While I agree with most of the ideas that you presented and while I always admire your passion, Dave, I must comment on two things that could get you into some troube. Most Biblical scholars agree that there is no evidence that Mary Magdalene was really a whore (if that is who you were referring to when you talked of Jesus' pals.) Its a Biblical version of an "urban myth." Mary did, however, have seven demons in her (Mark 16:9)Jesus does make the comment that harlots can enter heaven Matthew 21:31-32. You should also be warned that Jesus does make it quite clear in the Bible (whether you believe these were indeed his words or not is a whole other issue)that his God is the only real one and that he is the only way to get to God (John 10:9,John 10:38, John 14:6,Luke 10:22,Matthew 28:18, etc.)Fundamentalists will nail you on this one. xo, Debby
# posted by : Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:57:00 AM
: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:57:00 AM
Dave... don't bother to argue the points you make so well. They don't hear, and they don't see. Here's a very good analysis of why the lemmings follow the New Republican Herd.
Just CLICK HERE
Just CLICK HERE
# posted by : Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:02:00 AM
: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:02:00 AM
Dude,
I love when our politics come together.
I am so very conservative in so many ways, but there's always a crossroads somewhere when we meet. This series of articles is that crossroads.
You know, as a devout Atheist (former Catholic), it was this exact extreme thinking that turned me away from all religion and eventually a god. I
vowed after research and through experience that even the most loving, caring and ethically-correct family and friends would often become strangers
when religious discussion arose. I would be lying to you, my friend, if my family hasn't argued over my non-religious stance and that I haven't been
asked to "become a Jew" on several occasions from my in-laws. Religion in it's purest sense always has the best intentions, but in its purest sense is also ignorant. "It would be nice if he could marry a nice Jewish girl..." Opposed to what? "Catholic and Jewish? Don't you want to think of the children?" Why? Would they accidently get a taste of two cultures and maybe mistakingly grow tolerant of others' beliefs? Yikes. We need to draw the line somewhere... COME ON!!! My goal is to teach Shayna to be a good person. PERIOD!
David, before walking away from religion and the belief in a god, I read. I read the Bible. I read parts of the Torah. The Satanic Bible. Wiccan literature. Muslim belief structure. They all preach the same thing. Love, peace and understanding. Except the Satanic Bible, which, ironically enough preached... human nature. Hmm. It's one thing reading "Your Book", there's another thing following it.
The entire Christian philosophy was, is and will always be based on the fact that Jesus was a man. He was brought here to live like a man, think like a
man, suffer like a man. He HAD to be a man in order to cleanse man of that original sin. HAD to be a man. HAD to be a man in every way. EVERY WAY. He had to make mistakes. He had to get angry. At times he even had to hate. And being a man, he more than likely never truly practiced what he preached. he made mistakes. What made him unique, he tried, honestly tried, to do the right thing. And as a GOOD MAN, if he did the wrong thing, he made amends. I think you get my point.
To answer a few of the questions asked by a reader:
Would Jesus approve of abortion? Who the heck knows? Nobody knows. He was a man with his own opinion. His own mind. He was sent here for that reason. Does this reader believe she/he is better than their very own God that she/he can answer on behalf of their Lord. Man, that's a pretty bold action
in my opinion. I know I don't want anyone answering for me, even if I've provided a similar answer to them in writing in the past. And even if he didn't approve it, the Christian religion believes in acceptance and forgiveness. So, if we could answer for Christ based on his teachings, would he approve it? I don't know, but he would accept that some people do it and he would forgive them for doing so.
That answer is true for all questions asked and answered on behalf of Christ.
Anyway, religion and deistic belief always strikes a chord with me, my man. You should read Scripture (or the whole Bible). Grab a copy of Anton LeVey's Satanic Bible. It's some good shit to throw back in people's faces when they agree with you, then throw back in the puss when they find out who you quoted. It's a creepy read, but well worth it.
Keep up the good fight!
PS What's with the exclamation marks?
I love when our politics come together.
I am so very conservative in so many ways, but there's always a crossroads somewhere when we meet. This series of articles is that crossroads.
You know, as a devout Atheist (former Catholic), it was this exact extreme thinking that turned me away from all religion and eventually a god. I
vowed after research and through experience that even the most loving, caring and ethically-correct family and friends would often become strangers
when religious discussion arose. I would be lying to you, my friend, if my family hasn't argued over my non-religious stance and that I haven't been
asked to "become a Jew" on several occasions from my in-laws. Religion in it's purest sense always has the best intentions, but in its purest sense is also ignorant. "It would be nice if he could marry a nice Jewish girl..." Opposed to what? "Catholic and Jewish? Don't you want to think of the children?" Why? Would they accidently get a taste of two cultures and maybe mistakingly grow tolerant of others' beliefs? Yikes. We need to draw the line somewhere... COME ON!!! My goal is to teach Shayna to be a good person. PERIOD!
David, before walking away from religion and the belief in a god, I read. I read the Bible. I read parts of the Torah. The Satanic Bible. Wiccan literature. Muslim belief structure. They all preach the same thing. Love, peace and understanding. Except the Satanic Bible, which, ironically enough preached... human nature. Hmm. It's one thing reading "Your Book", there's another thing following it.
The entire Christian philosophy was, is and will always be based on the fact that Jesus was a man. He was brought here to live like a man, think like a
man, suffer like a man. He HAD to be a man in order to cleanse man of that original sin. HAD to be a man. HAD to be a man in every way. EVERY WAY. He had to make mistakes. He had to get angry. At times he even had to hate. And being a man, he more than likely never truly practiced what he preached. he made mistakes. What made him unique, he tried, honestly tried, to do the right thing. And as a GOOD MAN, if he did the wrong thing, he made amends. I think you get my point.
To answer a few of the questions asked by a reader:
Would Jesus approve of abortion? Who the heck knows? Nobody knows. He was a man with his own opinion. His own mind. He was sent here for that reason. Does this reader believe she/he is better than their very own God that she/he can answer on behalf of their Lord. Man, that's a pretty bold action
in my opinion. I know I don't want anyone answering for me, even if I've provided a similar answer to them in writing in the past. And even if he didn't approve it, the Christian religion believes in acceptance and forgiveness. So, if we could answer for Christ based on his teachings, would he approve it? I don't know, but he would accept that some people do it and he would forgive them for doing so.
That answer is true for all questions asked and answered on behalf of Christ.
Anyway, religion and deistic belief always strikes a chord with me, my man. You should read Scripture (or the whole Bible). Grab a copy of Anton LeVey's Satanic Bible. It's some good shit to throw back in people's faces when they agree with you, then throw back in the puss when they find out who you quoted. It's a creepy read, but well worth it.
Keep up the good fight!
PS What's with the exclamation marks?
# posted by : Friday, May 06, 2005 6:39:00 PM
: Friday, May 06, 2005 6:39:00 PM
You wrote:
Christ never preached exclusivity, arrogance or Hell as retribution for not agreeing with everything he said and did.
My reply:
I'm of the opinion that pretty much every viewpoint can be backed by scripture. For examples of Christ's exclusivity I point you to the following passages:
Matthew 12:30 = "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
Luke 13:23 = Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
John 14:6 = ... No one comes to the Father except through me.
- - - - - - -
I would be interested in passages that do NOT show Jesus preaching exclusivity. Can you cite chapter and verse to support your position?
cheers,
MITCHELL
Christ never preached exclusivity, arrogance or Hell as retribution for not agreeing with everything he said and did.
My reply:
I'm of the opinion that pretty much every viewpoint can be backed by scripture. For examples of Christ's exclusivity I point you to the following passages:
Matthew 12:30 = "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
Luke 13:23 = Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
John 14:6 = ... No one comes to the Father except through me.
- - - - - - -
I would be interested in passages that do NOT show Jesus preaching exclusivity. Can you cite chapter and verse to support your position?
cheers,
MITCHELL
# posted by : Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:08:00 PM
: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:08:00 PM
I'm not sure how my email address was added to the list, but THANK YOU! This is my first time reading and I have to say (with a bit of a smirk) PREACH ON BROTHA!
David, thank you for speaking up and providing the forum for others to do so.
Dan, you are a wise, wise man!
The anonymous poster with the daughter named Shayna; you've got the right idea. All any of us can do is strive to be the best person we can be and it's nearly impossible to do so with a finger shaking at you from 2000 years ago.
Speaking of the Bible (yeah, I know I wasn't)... what proof do we have that this book is anything more than a collection of fairy tales? Before Gutenberg and the printed word how was history, myth, legend passed on from generation to generation? Word of mouth. Tribes of people telling stories around the fire. Sure there were the hand written books that monks spent month upon month, year upon year tediously transcribing, but can you tell me honestly that there wasn't a bit of editorial freedom taken by the individual writers? So, in my opinion, we've got a book that's, in essence, a written transcript of an extensive game of "telephone". Who knows if we have the actual words, stories, or even the real MEANING that was once the purpose of these teachings? Not to mention the mistakes and miscommunications that undoubtedly arose in the translation.
Penn and Teller's show Bullshit! actually tackled this very same topic... although unabashedly biased, very interesting.
One theory I've come across in my own research into religion is this, which actually Penn and Teller also voiced, if a person were to read the Bible from cover to cover and believed every word written on those pages, that person would undoubtedly be Atheist.
One very important fact that Extremist Christians tend to forget is that this is a country founded by those seeking freedom from religious persecution. I don't think that meant that it would be ok to persecute everyone else... maybe I'm too naive.
What happened to acceptance and loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek? Only when it happens to fit the situation, I guess.
We are a nation of all colors, religions, and sexual tendencies, but we are all one race. The Human Race. The sooner we can come together as such the sooner we can evolve and leave all of those petty war-mongering ways behind.
Thank you!
Heather
David, thank you for speaking up and providing the forum for others to do so.
Dan, you are a wise, wise man!
The anonymous poster with the daughter named Shayna; you've got the right idea. All any of us can do is strive to be the best person we can be and it's nearly impossible to do so with a finger shaking at you from 2000 years ago.
Speaking of the Bible (yeah, I know I wasn't)... what proof do we have that this book is anything more than a collection of fairy tales? Before Gutenberg and the printed word how was history, myth, legend passed on from generation to generation? Word of mouth. Tribes of people telling stories around the fire. Sure there were the hand written books that monks spent month upon month, year upon year tediously transcribing, but can you tell me honestly that there wasn't a bit of editorial freedom taken by the individual writers? So, in my opinion, we've got a book that's, in essence, a written transcript of an extensive game of "telephone". Who knows if we have the actual words, stories, or even the real MEANING that was once the purpose of these teachings? Not to mention the mistakes and miscommunications that undoubtedly arose in the translation.
Penn and Teller's show Bullshit! actually tackled this very same topic... although unabashedly biased, very interesting.
One theory I've come across in my own research into religion is this, which actually Penn and Teller also voiced, if a person were to read the Bible from cover to cover and believed every word written on those pages, that person would undoubtedly be Atheist.
One very important fact that Extremist Christians tend to forget is that this is a country founded by those seeking freedom from religious persecution. I don't think that meant that it would be ok to persecute everyone else... maybe I'm too naive.
What happened to acceptance and loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek? Only when it happens to fit the situation, I guess.
We are a nation of all colors, religions, and sexual tendencies, but we are all one race. The Human Race. The sooner we can come together as such the sooner we can evolve and leave all of those petty war-mongering ways behind.
Thank you!
Heather
# posted by : Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:04:00 PM
: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:04:00 PM
Regarding the woman with the affinity for punctuation...
Ever notice that the most ignorant are often the loudest?
Ever notice that the most ignorant are often the loudest?
# posted by : Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:42:00 PM
: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:42:00 PM
By any chance, are you published anywhere else? I love your stuff; it's logical, truthful, and pointedly honest. Editorials like this should be openly published everywhere.
Also, I appreciate your work because I am a pacifist, an atheist, gay, and an independent voter; talk about a quadruple whammy!
Keep up the good work.
Also, I appreciate your work because I am a pacifist, an atheist, gay, and an independent voter; talk about a quadruple whammy!
Keep up the good work.
dan, youre a heathen too! cool so am i. As an unreligious teen, I believe that it is stupid for people to fight over religion. I just want to yell out "Doods! Why are you going crazy about stupid religions?! All bibles say the same thing: one God, one Jesus, THEY ALL TEACH THE EXACT SAME THING!!! sure theres people who just go to church every sunday and thats about it, theres people who live by their religion all day and quote from the bible, theres people (like me) who say that they believe but only because their parents make them! CAtholism, Christianism, Jewisim, they all have the same god, same bible, same everything! so why the fighting?
oh yea, nice writing keep it up!
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oh yea, nice writing keep it up!
# posted by : Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:06:00 PM
: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:06:00 PM<< Home
